Harassment and spam hunters
Someone who’s speaking for the spammers said in a comment on Spamtool gets outed, that some spamhunters make threats against spammers or their wives and children. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I still have to address the principle.
Do NOT attack spammers in any way! We’re not posting their information so you guys can contact them and bemean them in any way. That’s not the point.
The point is establishing a history, so when they do something that is illegal - either escalation of what they’re doing (using zombies, hacking), or when webspamming becomes illegal, we have a trail on them.
About harassment and threats
Simply put, if spam hunters attack spammers via threats or violence, then those spam hunters are more miserable beings than the spammers.
It’s illegal, and I’ll show you how:
Most states have harassment laws. They’re often called cyberstalking laws, but in reality they’re covering a sliding scale from single incidents of harassment. A phone call where you call a spammer names is harassment in my opinion, and if you keep calling it’s stalking, in many states. If you threaten them, you’ve just sealed the deal. Some states have intent as part of the law. Which means for it to be harassment or stalking, there needs to be intent. That will not be hard to prove in the case of a spam hunter trying to intimidate a spammer.
So don’t go there. The aim is to get the spammer in jail - eventually. If I see a spam hunter arrested for harassment or worse, I’m outing that spam hunter. Wall of shame, whatever. Do NOT go there!
As a rule I don’t get angry over spamming. But right now I’m feeling the blood boiling. Harassment and stalking is such a low tactic. If you feel the need to do something like that, go get help! It’s a sign of either a personality disorder or a very shaky sense of self. It’s like a playground bully, that has to bemean others to feel good about himself. We’re grown ups, so act like a grown up!
Some good points mentioned here. But whilst people are using legal methods why not leave them alone… otherwise you’re actually pretty much harassing them yourself.
As much as I would probably feel more satisfied with a spammer’s neck being squeezed between my hands sometimes, threats are both illegal (in many places) and unprofessional.
At the same time, I often feel like I’m in a serious minority. I am fully aware of the power of good internet marketing. I also see how some spammers operate and that in itself is both unprofessional and often downright illegal in itself many times. How legitimate is your business if you need to hide behind several layers of aliases, funnel your money outside your own country, and base your business operations on hijacked zombie computers?
As spam hunters, we must be constantly vigilant lest we fall into this trap and become the criminals ourselves. Operations like the now defunct Blue Security had teeth because they faught back against spammers effectively. Where did that get them? Shut down by those very same spammers. Who has the most teeth now? SpamHause and SpamCop come to mind. But both are only a drop in the bucket. Neither one really takes action against the spammers: They only provide information about the spammers and let the consumers of said information use it in whatever way they see fit.
One major problem as I see it is that Law Enforcement in general does not take generic spam seriously. Not until a lot of *money& is lost by one entity… and spammers sap a little here and a little there. The miliseconds it takes to filter out one spam… the seconds it takes to manually delete another. LEO doesn’t care. Now, if I actually bought a huge order from the spammer, they might look at it.
So what do we do without a company like Blue Security on our side? I don’t know. I’m open to suggestions. But making threats to the spammers’ families is not the answer.
I agree with you 100% and don’t do or condone such actions, especially against people’s families as that’s just sick.
On the flipside, if the spammer doesn’t want to be the center of attention for the ire of many upset people, the simple answer is DON’T SPAM and nobody will harass you.
They fill peoples forums and blogs up with crap, make people spend time and money securing sites and removing junk posts and email, all a meaningless waste-of-time, and it makes a lot of people real freak’n mad
I can see why people might be a bit upset but you must admit, that if they stopped the spamming it would all be over so they do bring this on themselves, it’s not like they’re busy making friends.
I agree with esrun, a lot of these marked spammers are actually not breaking any laws, yet you tag them as a spammer and post there personal information.
You claim your purpose for posting these informations is to help put the spammer in jail, which is a farfetched dream, and if that is your purpose you are wasting your time, let me explain.
If you look at e-mail spam, the most legally documented cyber crime and illegal form of spamming there is. Have you ever done a search to how much jail time has been spent due to email spamming?
Consider this a very extreme paradox, but spammers dont do jail time. I come from a large background of email spamming, and have done much business with ROSKO’s Top spammers, be it Amichay Inbar, Michael Lindsay, as well as Alan Ralsky…all of which have been on top 10 or ROSKO for years and years. All 3 of these guys have spent many many days and weeks in court, for nothing to happen and they still remain on the list and they still remain the biggest spammers in the business.
If your dream and hopeful goals for this website is to be a revealing informative resource for the face behind the spam mask, then you are wasting your time big time. I am not being disrespectful, I am just saying that this is senseless and it causes more stalking and harassment then anything else.
I highly doubt any of your traffic is coming from New York law firms, but maybe I am wrong.
I know why you’re here, Steve. Your surfing trail on my site was a lightbulb moment.
BTW, I guess you knew one of your IP addresses had a history of web spamming all it’s own? Back in July? Oh, and I see spamming is confirmed right up to the end of August as well. Now where have I seen that kind of spamming before…?
LOL, admin, I don’t know what your site is, nor do I really care. I am here really just to pass time, and speak with a few intelligent people for what it appears, but don’t go jumping on your high horse just yet.
If I was out to hide my identity, I would have used a proxy.
As far as your subtle riddle about my IP, I am not very surprised you had a lightbulb moment. Especially if you seem to be trying to educate me on actions that I have done myself, and then I am supposed to be impressively surprised that you know, when in the previous post I clearly stated what my position in these articles are. I am sure turning the computer on in the morning is a ‘lightbulb moment’ for you. Another lightbulb moment might be that I didn’t use a proxy to make these posts.
So admin, lets end this riddle, and bring to conclusion…Why am I here? Surfing a trail? I hope you didnt pay for that information.
You know and I know. That’s enough.
More with the riddle? I am sorry for you that you want this to appear more than it is… I am here for no alternative motives, so I am very sorry to disappoint since it seems that you feed off drama.
I really just come to talk legal, since that seems to be your specialty. =)
Lace up your shoes and run along.
Will do. Make sure you keep posting foreign spammers personal information, since it appears those European spam laws are very strict, since that is your motive, to help with legal issues.
Sounds like you caught another spammer squirming in your traps.
Besides, the information posted was all publicly available, nothing she’s done other than take a “snapshot” of the associated information linked to the activity before the spammer has a chance to change it.
Posting private information from a private registration would be another story but that isn’t the case as it’s all publicly accessible.
If you don’t like being outted then quit spamming, simple enough for you?
Now move along before you incriminate yourself.
I think the point here is that there is a difference between posting public information and posting public information along with comments such as calling the person a “spammer”.
A dream just came out: a single person, nothing more than a shadow, entering a pub full of postmasters - Hi, I’m Alan Ralsky, and I’m a spammer…
Yes, Spamhaus has a nice, um, resume on Mr. Ralsky:
http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/listing.lasso?-op=cn&spammer=Alan%20Ralsky
Nice work IncrediBILL, I am sure all these posts you guys make, you wouldnt want to be facing the lawsuit spamhaus is looking at right now.
I’m astonished. “Steve Balmer” is on-topic. Just because this thread is about threats. Empty threats.
[...] Harassment and spam hunters [...]
Bringing up a bogus lawsuit brought under false pretenses in the wrong jurisdiction means you’re grasping at straws.
Nothing like watching a spammer squirm, it’s such a hoot.
Incredibill, lets see what happens from here. It will be interesting to see the enforcement of that order carried out.
i find it slightly ironic that the spamhuntress told the [admitted] email spammer to run along after having spent so much time trying to track these guys down..i would think the dialog was a healthy thing..
and i would just like to point out that establishing a track record for some of these spammers wont necessarily help win a lawsuit..do a google search for “ex post facto”..
libel on the other hand…hmm…food for thought…
“The point is establishing a history, so when they do something that is illegal - either escalation of what they’re doing (using zombies, hacking), or when webspamming becomes illegal, we have a trail on them.”
That is the same pretzel logic that says marijuana users will become addicted to heroine and armed robbery. First, spam in and of itself is not nor will it ever be illegal. Hacking, defacing or hijacking someone else’s site is - as it should be. As I see it, this kind of bombastic thread is a simply link bait - a kind of spam itself. Don’t kid yourself - using either a markhov generator or incendiary comments are just two different sides of the same coin - to get traffic to fulfill what you desire, be it ego bolstering traffic or adsense income.
@perkiset: “First, spam in and of itself is not nor will it ever be illegal.”
Excuse me, spam in my country is illegal. Do your homework before stating such things.
Lemat, perkiset was referring to “webspam” which certainly isn’t illegal. You may *think* that some law covers it, but it just doesn’t. It’s just that simple.
This site is such a joke, I can’t believe you waste your time with this crap. I have heard it all from people like you, my hosts, domains, Adsense, every freaking account I have has been reported…what happens?? Nothing cause it’s about $$$$$$$$$$…keep on spamming, keep on spamming people.
@Lemat - First, you must define spam.
If you lop every type of ill device known to the net into the buzz word “spam” you’ll certainly find items that are illegal. Second, what country and what is illegal? Because again - spam sites in and of themselves are not illegal. There may be methods of promoting them that are. But the notion that a site will with nothing but baloney in it is in some way breaking the law is laughable.
To Perkiset:
So called search engine spam covers a lot of ground. If you’re talking about scraper sites, the legality will be tested against copyright laws. If you’re talking about advertizing portals (so called search engines), they probably won’t be illegal by themselves, unless the affiliate scheme is deemed illegal.
But “comment spam” types will probably be deemed illegal at some point.
To Admin:
Copyright laws exist regardless of the delivery platform, and that is important. If you blatantly copy someone else’s work whether in print form or electronic, you’re in for trouble. This is not Spam (necessarily) - it’s plagiarism.
Affiliate schemes: At least here in the US, you cannot define an affiliate scheme as illegal for *some* and not others. If you open a mechanism for commission schemes, you get to be fair about the presentation of it. That means that some will abuse it - it may be against your *policy* but it will not be against the law, unless you illegalize the entirety of affiliates.
Regarding comment spam: if a blog is open for comments (like this one) then you cannot make it illegal to post a comment robotically. You can make it against your policy, but not illegal. Even if that is tried, it will fail and even if some gung ho litigious type manages to get something passed, it will never be enforceable.
The real truth of the matter is that spam in the engines pisses people off - I understand. But the market will take care of that. People will get smarter about what sites they visit, where they click, how they behave on the net and the value in spamvertising will wane. Spamvertiers will adapt and adjust, and the circle of capitalism continues.
Dave Gold, I certainly read every post on spamhuntress.com and pass many posts on to my colleagues here at Google.
keep on spamming.
thought this update on the Spamhaus lawsuit might interest your readers
http://internetandclassactionlaw.blogspot.com/2006/10/spamhaus-email-lawsuit-gets.html
Hey - you “turning us in” is just part of the deal. It’s the wild west out there on the internet - you’re making money you could NOT make anywhere else. How is that so different from us? You don’t want the downside because it reduces your cash flow - so we’re kinda the same - no?
It’s personal defamation for a spammer to spoof an email address in their deliveries… if it was a phone level telemarketing attempt with a cid of your phone number it would be a felony. Spoofing an identity is a felony (even be it an email address - which is so simple to do).
That said…. do not make it a witch hunt… the reason it’s easy to commit a felony level offense (which is easily detecable as false) is because of lack of understanding.
Urge your congress-critters (because, well, they barely pass the bar in terms of vertebrates at this point) that education about technology in politics is a very very important thing.
The modem and the fax are dinosaurs of an age that doesn’t want to be forgotten.
Information transfers are completed faster then most people can rationalize.
The time to act and shape is now… most all of us will just watch however..
And that will be just fine…
So is it legal Esrun to make unsolictided phone calls and say and I quote “I will leave you with nothing”?
Is it legal esrun to make repeated phone calls to people at 3am in morning. Scaring there family?
Actually its not. Its considered a legally recognised threat under UK law and you broke it.
Spamhuntress RDNS the mx records of these people they all lead to one source.
Its a problem I agree how to deal with these people. Its kind of like dealing with a paedophile, they can’t be rehabilitated back into society. Esrun could be as he seemed at one stage to show remorse.
Esrun I think could be a wonderfull programmer and someone I would be proud to know. I think he could be someone I would pass all my knowledge too and absorbe it in an instant he’s that clever and could go on to produce fantastic websites and really do good for the world. I just don’t know how I can take him away from his current mindset. I really want to get this guy on a positive way forward I just don’t know how I can reach him.
Keniki
Please Help.
And Matt Cutts, if you guys are using him for bad things, you are further damaging a good soul.
Keniki
I am well aware google employ people pump them for info and then discard them. Google if you want to take on Esrun you will promise me you will not do that and show this kid a carreer. If you discard him all hell will break loose I promise. Esrun is a good kid and has a good soul.
Keniki
Never let Esrun know I said that.
Keniki
Or Esrun……………
Keniki
Or ersun……
Umm, Looks like Esrun knows all about you… This post is very old. Take your discussion elsewhere.
Umm looks like your talking XXXX Admin and I am tired of beeing nice about things.
Thats not worked so its time to blow whole industry apart……
Your friend is a google employee and his actions are unforgivable.